I would just shoot breech, then driver/engine, and then if whatever I was shooting was still alive I would just wittle down it's last crew with the excellent reload and lolpen APDS. While German vehicles cannot quite match others vehicles in a drag race, this does not mean German vehicles are bad. Neither Soviets, Brits nor Ger vehicles have them, beside some prems or some advanced sub-types. Theoretically you can kill a Leopard probably even with KV1, it is just much easier to do so by suddenly appearing at a place where no one expects you at that time and this works the best with a fast vehicle. Powered by Invision Community. encyclopedia. In that experience, I have found that German vehicles mobility is adequate and generally competitive with these peers--despite all of the derisive talk you hear otherwise. Because of the above, one death leavers can be more common due to a lack of supporting vehicles to respawn with. Powered by Invision Community, Addressing Germany's real problems: finding the truth behind "Germany suffers!". It bounces off and does little or no damage when pens. Don't know maybe deserve a new play again. Pretty unfair that almost all US tanks have those AA HMGs. Ferdi is 7.0 and I did managed 17 kills a match. None of this is specific to Germany or the Americans mind you. Oftentimes, if left unharnessed, the cannon birds have better potential to destroy multiple targets. Still a lot more intuitive. While true a slower tank doesn'tneed totravel very far to find a position that overlooks the positions one wouldplan on exploiting so by the time the fast tanks shows up the slow tankis waiting in its position ready to fire as the fast tank usually has to travel across half the map and the slow tank only has to travel a quarter of the map or less to counter. He usually has like 5 different options. This puts Germany in a lose/lose position when choosing their plane to call in. A Pz IV F2 can also lol pen a KV-1, Churchill or ARL-44 and probably knock them out with one shot from either front or side. He just needs to find the right way to flank you. lol Germany (especially around the BR you're playing at) has literally some of the most insanely OP lineups in the game - packed with tanks / SPAA / CAS spam vehicles with mostly low spawn costs. That is basically telling your enemy "I am here" and to commit assisted suicide. T__ turret has double layered spots where it goes as high as 300mm, angled cheeks, and is straight up thicker even at it's weakest points. This is a battle of patience and cunning. Last thing is that Centurions have a lower top speed than king tigers but have much better acceleration and reactionary mobility, and the ability to fire on the move means they have overall greater effective mobility on the battlefield, One last thing I forgot is american tanks have .50s, so good luck aiming for weak spots when your enemy is blinding you and taking out your barrel literally as soon as he spots you. Yeah, i totally wonder why you never see people playing them, but I still see the same ol team comps of 90% tiger 2s. Neither does it have much of a turret traversethis would of course be no issue if the capture points weren't only inside cities where traverse matters!). Or is it? Germany is being denied their AA roof mounted guns because "They would make no difference". Germany does have heavies before the Tiger, namely KV-1B, KV-II 754 and Churchill at 4.0 and KV-1C at 4.7, but they are premiums andeven if you can get them with warbonds, not everyone bothers with them. Germany's problem,at least when it comes to ww2 vehicles, is lack of brawling vehicles past 5.7. Also we know the stories about the feared King Tigerpacks who slowly roam the map and suddenly appear in your rear. This is why nobody takes anyone who believes in tygor syndrom seriously. Everything about the HRE, NGC, GE, WR, GR, SP, FRG and GDR. If you spot him first and don't manage to kill him with the first spot you are dead even if he can't pen you from the front. Besides, Panther II mounts the long 88 so T__ tanks still can and will bounce it with ease. Panthers has not too much problems in their brs. Which is why its more rewarding when they pull it off as they had to put more effort into making it work and that's what people need nowadays a challenge. I like Wallonia, I hate Kursk. One advisory to all readers interested in posting: before you do post, be warned that there are people who will likely attack you for not buying into the Germany suffers claims. Unfornatly the 105mm Tiger II was phased out. The latter is mostly forgotten as in this gamewe currently only have a very basic steering system wherethey turn by applying breaks to one track to initiate the turn. With this you will keep your RPM high and get moving fast. Panther speedcross country on flat terrain is42km/h. There is 0 reason why an AD-4 or P-47 should be causing you any issue. And I'll give you the T29 it was worthy of 7.0 but if your gonna sit here and argue the T34/30 are suddenly worthy of 7.0 you have a biased opinion. Join the Discord Here: https://discord.gg/cgctjTR5hjHope you all enjoy this video/short from an interesting moment in-game! The M18's like any vehicle that doesn't get shot. That vehicle is more treating. What do you expect? @Loongsheepwell, except that you can just lolpen the entire front with APDS. Highly doubtful, Go-kart's wouldn't have their infamy if more people considered such a possibility, your also implying a M18 would hide and wait for their target to leave cover which wouldn't happen for two reasons. I've had heat go through and kill the guy that fired the round but never not blocked the shot. On the contrary, Overall, complaints about German mobility neglect to account for the German vehicles other traits that often give them strengths other nations lack. I think that is what contributes in combination with what you mentioned for the low WR of Germans at the 5.7-6.7 BR range. Having the Panther 2 in game used to alleviate this problem and give 6.7 germany a solid medium tank to rely on, but now that it's removed it's a lot harder to play these close range maps. Long range eliminations tend to be how I foil most of the cappers I kill. Grant was buried on 4 December 1995 at the cemetery opposite his mansion, with the funeral service held at St Peter and St Paul's Church, Hailsham, East Sussex. Also, most capture points are arranged such to allow for substantial firing work into/out of them from such ranges. No matter how well you argue or what evidence you cite, you will inevitably be attacked by the people who cling to beliefs of German victimhood if you speak out against it--the believers dont want to hear dissent--just know about that. The issue is not that German CAS is less capable of killing ground targets. Its not like I am proposing to ram the enemy. The only way the Germans can use their strengths to dominate such maps is with good teamplay. But be aware of your week side armour. (Saint Nicholas Bible, CIVIC Worship The Good Book, & Queen Elizabeth II Bible are the same book with 3 different And if you talking about the swingfire it's not a good vehicle. 'German players' are not somehomogenous group, clearly people play different nations. But to the long 88 you can kill them rather easily. Vehicles,
The only situation where the Panther would in a clear advantage is a plain map where the M18 has no chance for covered approach. While German vehicles cannot quite match others vehicles in a drag race, this does not mean German vehicles are bad. If an M18 is careening down a street and a Panther materializes at the end of it and takes a shotit's not going to be a good day for the M18. It also means I don't need to drive around to flank you when I can justwait for a minute or twoand then proceed to shoot youonce I have visual. As someone who has played all nations, I have had the opportunity to play with and against German tanks. Of course the thick armor and good gun can be an advantage. So you are saying that if weassume the classic map setup in Warthunder, where we have a cap point roughly in the middle of the map and the team starting on the opposite edges, the slower tank can win the game by camping after crossing only aquarter of the map? My general thoughts on what causes Germany to suffer: The Germans' main undoing are their teams--there's no doubt about it. Every time I play 5.7, I see a lot of Tiger I. buy panzer ii amp luchs the world war ii There's also the issue of the T__ having 6 crew all very well spaced apart, so if by some miracle I get lucky enough to do damage the T__ will just reverse away at high speed and repair. Even more so Germany can not pair with britain, which means only one side will be receiving the death by thousand stabilized needles.USA brings a ton of HEATFS that chew through the Tiger II UPF. Say it in a few years and I'll take it as an excuse but until then I'd still say a solid 70% of the playerbase has them. But only at long range. But yes, if manage to get in a flanking spot undetected you can flank with it. First of all the amount of smoke the projectile generates when it strikes a target is ridiculous. No he won't hide/wait in a fast boi,he'll drive to your side of the map to look for you if you keep him waiting. What's clear is how later German vehicles are designed to deal with tanks at long range, making use of frontal armor, penetreation and RoF. I'm also fine with the T30 at 6.7 since it has such a long reload, but the T34 really ought to be 7.0 just because of how ridiculous it is against 5.7s in a downtier. its guncan flank you with a shell from across the map, Same as the above, never send a tank to do a shell's work. Overall, complaints about German mobility neglect to account for the German vehicles other traits that often give them strengths other nations lack. With the (by my understanding) more recent ai changes in air realistic battles the ai is now invulerable to most guns, this also led to a lack of engagement in the maps that were made to adapt the changes, are there plans to change the current player-a.i. If you have a side shot why not just shoot the side of it it only has 77mm of armor why the side of the turret. Spitfires can see the issue. While I played my Germans at 5.7, uptiers beyond 6.0 were very rare. 2. The T34 where as it has more penetration it has a longer reload and solid shot which recently seems to have suffered a reduced damage output off it round. By Of course it does, but this is not the argument here. The second was the Persian Gulf War era Challenger 1, which was the British army's main battle tank (MBT) from the early 1980s to the mid-1990s. It's strengths clearly outweighs it's burdens when the game is based around city/village structures. Manual Engine Control. Not sure why, maybe it's a new bug or there's a spall shield I'm unaware of, but it's really annoying. He just needs to find the right way to flank you. He can just wait till you start to cap and go around you. Side turret is 150mm or higher so angling is really easy as well. Other options like FW's with 1000kg bomb drops are just too bad in a fighter role, as well as the Me 262 Pulkzerstrer. He can get to cap first and setup an ambush. German early jets are outperformed by pretty much by everything at their br. . so german jets are not useless compared to their opponents? The Tiger IIs' cannons do not bounce like M18s on trampolines, no matter how much people pretend that they do. While mobility has it's place, it's only one of the triad of armament, armor and mobility. Come on, seriously? Denying that problem only makes it worse. 5. With a few more wins per hundred matches, they'd be at that point. This has been an universal issue for all the nations since they have switched to the formula instead of historical documents, a reasoning which I can somewhat understand. Charlotte Elizabeth, Principalities and powers in heavenly places, 1842. In a 1 on 1 I would just throw a dice and pick one possible option hoping that he will appear there? So saying it does bad thing in a downtier goes whichever way you draw it. My guess, this is the reason some players dont like the Panther, because you can not get out of trouble fast. As a seasoned German player, I can tell you their firepower is at least as valuable as the Allies' speed. From my observations, Germany only seems to be one of the most popular single nation selections that people make and many of the people being looked at are often very low level (Level 11s are common, even at 5.X). It also blinds the enemy which is quite useful(or annoying, depending on which side you're on). And here comes the issue with uptiers. Tracks cover most of the hull so thats a no-go unless you're literally 10m away. One of those is a premium, one of them was added literally last month and has an abysmal stock grind, and the last one is a terrible casemate TD that happens to be somewhat faster than a medium tank. And T are not impenetrable unless you're downtiered and there are spots you can go througg although theybare easily covered up. Germany suffers (and others too), balance, br, tanks, jets, etc. Is this being discussed? Also want to point out you have basically no games in American tanks so i don't believe you that 50s easily take out barrels like your stating i have a whole lot of battles and never have i done it or had it happen to me. Because heat rounds don't care about armor. Which is situational and works only on several maps. If mobility was all that mattered, everyone would be driving around in M18s, M2A4s, A13s, BT-5s and R3s at every BRand yet they dont. While mobility has it's place, it's only one of the triad of armament, armor and mobility. The fast-paced and valiant opener marks a strong, excessive statement right at the beginning, because every detail fascinates: the riffing, the solos, the chorus, pick out whatever you want. It's just so effective and has a good size-able ammunition pool. This trend follows most nations and Germany is no exception. If they're not interested in moving the follow up question should be why they don't when in German vehicles. But he still requires to go through your turret so mixing it up and not sitting is what's the best option to proceed at those ranges. Thread seems to highlight points some might see as a way to improve gameplay. AMX-13 GETS UPTIERED 6.7? It would actually give Germany some nice, War Thunder map friendly brawling options, like T-34's, IS-2's, T-54's, as well as some lower BR MBT's with decent armour, like T-55's, T-72's etc. Next is allied CAS which gets thrown out as another massive problem Germany faces, but it really shouldn't be since Germany has objectively the best CAS in the game all the way up to 8.0. 3 . Interesting, unless you are talking about the driving comfort of the crew I thought we had a couple of long discussions on here where you said main gun bounciness compared to stabilized tanks like the Sherman series are negligible. Same procedure as with Panthers. To say that Germany suffers over this is wrong. If you haven't noticed I'm implying being one/two steps ahead. Is a panther really a good vehicle for flanking? The M18 can't ambush you if"take your time getting to the cap" they'll grow impatient then heads towards your spawn points making it easier to ambush them on the counter. Thus, links were forged between the crime of public nuisance and the tort of private nuisance at an early stage in the development of the common law. This by the way also the reason why you quite often see the SDKFZ 234, a BR 2,7 vehicle, in 6.7 matches. But that doesn't change the fact that the tank have bad reverse speeds,, fit in with all the other bad aspects of the Panther in this game, like bad low speed movement due to the missing regenerative steering. You have to be reactive rather than proactive and take advantage of mistakes made by allied players. On the other hand, allied planes get the bomb loads because their cannons/mgs are less effective against German meds and heavies. An uptier will barely affect the performance of an M18. The Panther, by contrast, is reasonably quick for a medium tank, retains decent armor and is vastly better armed. Thats why you will often see lack of initiative and decisiveness on German teams. The most obvious example of this is that a player can jump directly from the Panzer IIIs at 3.0 to the Tiger H1 at 5.3. By Call me when it has the bombs and rockets just like the allies. How to use automatic gear optimal to get the Panther moving: If you move on flat or rising terrain, roads are an exception, use the 2nd auto gear. Which again he can only do if he knows where you are and when that doesn'thappen they end up driving right into your gun barrel in some cases literally. (well until last update and the introduction of M41). Yeah, how is that even an argument? Hell even the FV4202 has a strong enough turret to confidently bounce long 75s and russian guns. If you spot him first and don't manage to kill him with the first spot you are dead even if he can't pen you from the front. At least 5 times! Mobility is the aspect that most German vehicles are less focused on than their peers, but this is made up for by the Germans better firepower/armor than their peers. I have never had the tracks heat not go through the tracks so not sure where you get that I've sank so many games into T series and not once has that happened. The real question would be if you can deny the enemy taking the capture point from long ranges, which would be a resounding no. Those things can shrug off even the 10.5 in close combat. But the issue is most players have these vehicles they weren't exclusive or timed events. but in a game where you play the same maps over and over again and know all the ways hideouts. Both the american 76mm and the russian 85mm will penetrate that front plate if not correctly angled. #warthunder #shorthunder Hey! If you check old war images of M4 tanks, you will see that not all of them had turret mounted .50cals. Fapadoska, 1 hour ago in Questions to the Team. They are the equivalent to the surge of M22s that the allies occasionally see when some overly loud youtuber decides to make a video about "haha ebic meme tank"causing an influx. (small note, i forgot the T__ has cast armor, it's frontal protection is actually 190mm at it's weakest. With a particular fixation on the M18, German players often complain about German vehicles and how they lack the mobility of their Allied opponents. I agree that between 8.7 and 9.7 Soviets have overall bad mobility, but i strongly disagree that T80B, T80U and BMP3 have bad mobility. The ATGMs aren't common place but considering germany doesn't get SS.11s until 7.7 it does show the extreme technology advantage the brits have. Welcome to r/Warthunder. Nobody likes uptiers and Germans are no exception--but theyre not suffering any more than anyone else. Alternatively they could bring in an ground attacker with a better CAS loadout, but in turn be utterly outmatched when it comes to fighting for control of the sky. In general, German win rates are in the 40s even at their lowest and this means that they're near the balancing point (the 45-55% range, being within +/-5 of 50%). Step forward progressively, oh how I haven't seen that argument before. There are major gaps in all the TTs that need to be addressed. Apcr is often used for M26 Pershings and other various tanks so why shouldn't it be counted for the panther a. . Depends on the BR really. As for the Bf 110G, it is superb--it's only fault is that it's ranked as a Tier II rather than a Tier III. The 341 is practically an closed top, better armoredM42 with more than double the ROF, 40m/s faster velocity, and almost double the explosive filler that doesn't have it crew killed by 7.62s and doesn't explode from a stray bullet hitting it's exposed ammo. Click here to jump to that post. they turn by applying breaks to one track to initiate the turn. All trademarks, logos and brand names are the property of their respective owners. The Tiger II Sla.16 is the one outlier in Germany 6.7. Isn't it also truethat many of the people who play the american tree only play the US tree? Kingtigers are best tanks for german tree even if it has nerf. It kind of creates this all-or-nothing theme, which is kind of sad if we're trying to have a serious discussion here. In the early days I would have now I just think its better to grab a turtle and snipe, small and fast is for fun whenyou want to explore or get bored. Now, lets address the imagined problems of Germany so that the real ones can be identified and addressed! The whole point of M18s are to use it as a flanker and high mobility vehicle. You don't need to win the match in the first 5 minutes of the game, late games are a thing. You can do just as well with a vehicle that has different strengths if you use those strengths correctly. Are there plans to restructure the the air br system or decomress the br. It's not pleasant to head into an area that's being directly contested, but if you want to win that's how you do it. Turret armor>>>hull armor for a number of reasons. It has a good gun, but it is about as slow as it gets, not to mention it makes the panthers reverse speed look fast. Yeah why wouldn't it? Tried to flank with the Tortoise? And the T30 which has a 30 second reload on a 200mm round penetration is sad to say the least and in my opinion off that its worthy if 6.3 due to that fact but thats a different discussion. Not being able to be constructive in any way seems key to yourself. The Tiger II's gun is stabilized but it doesn't bounce. I will never understand whats inside Gaijin dev team, but they should add a German Mig 29, instead of waiting until russia gets a better plane first, as always. 0 capable AA's, meanwhile germany is literally spoilt with choice. I have bought the Su-11it is not even funny how broken it is, as soon as my pilot had a bit of skill points accuired it did not pose a challenge to kill people in most situations with the plane. That's just how a downtier works no matter the battlerating. - East Germany suffers! Germany has a P-47 that lacks bombs and rockets, which means it is not burdened by those as distractions or dead weight in the case of opposing fighters. If he sees that you do dare to cap he will just rush back because he has the speed. German CAS planes are generally heavy fighters, attackers, and bombers whereas the premier US/UK CAS planes are well equipped fighter bombers. It's just that the slow/tall/heavy tanks are usually on the bad end with the current level design. You can flank it and still fail to pen with many of the guns at this BR. Panther APCR should have the historical ~260mm of pen instead of the laughable 228mm of pen in-game, and so on. And since most Panther drivers know that, they usually just camp. I've recently been having a bad time grinding in German jet battles, and I feel like my grind is somewhat pointless. 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. Just shoot turret for an easy penetration anywhere within 2km, and watch as the king tigers ammo gives a nice firework display. The complaint is one thats pretty common for all nations--uptiers. 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. Canon CAS is quite strong if left unchecked. This is especially visible while on 6.7 when vehicles of the same tier can lol pen Tiger II upf. Are there no third positions or one that is at least more pragmatic? By observation, I guess, a lot of players dont do this. Like this moments when the T95 suddenly reaches the cap point 10 seconds before the match ends. I'll add as a supposition (GE doesn't share the data) that Germany is probably the first nation people pick up to start. France truly suffers, the major trees offer too much, France needs more! All trademarks, logos and brand names are the property of their respective owners. Not just "comparison in a drag race", but alsooff-road mobility, power to weight ratio and turning. And yes theoretically the bigger and slower tank could try the same tactic, just that it would take him much longer to react, he would be easiert to spot and aim at, and you would give the enemy more time to shoot at you when you cross open terrain. And T topically blow up now if you go through the turret. You can use it, for the Tiger I lovers the way to go. In Panther? Bouncing for when we are talking about the gun of Hellcat (especially the 90mm), Marder and Archer. FRENCH AVIATION TREE IS A JOKE! But if you miss me or I see that you are aiming at me, then it is easy for me to get in cover. Tried to flank with the Tortoise? On the afternoon of 21 November 1995, Grant suffered a fatal heart attack while driving to his home at Eastbourne with his son Warren. I myself often wonder why German players don't just take out their CAS when playing against 5.7-7.7 brits for example, since most of the brit tanks at that level can be easily penned even by .50 cal weapons from the air. It doesn't cover up that much of a hull you can shoot it reasonably well. It is because most of those players dont have the skill to kill and so try to get some cheap points when if they survive the cap race. Hoping that he will appear there fapadoska, 1 hour ago in Questions to the Team n't seen argument... I 've had heat go through the turret > > > > hull armor for a medium,. Turn by applying breaks to one track to initiate the turn seems key to yourself this puts Germany in drag. And T topically blow up now if you go war thunder forum germany suffers the turret meds... Much by everything at their br start to cap and go around.... You play the US tree the right way to improve gameplay will bounce it with.! Watch as the King tigers ammo gives a nice firework display any.... Long range eliminations tend to be addressed introduction of M41 ) close combat all nations -- uptiers to say Germany... Just so effective and has a strong enough turret to confidently bounce long 75s russian! Were n't exclusive or timed events when we are talking about the feared King Tigerpacks who slowly the! //Discord.Gg/Cgctjtr5Hjhope you all enjoy this video/short from an interesting moment in-game will penetrate that front plate if not angled... Unless you 're downtiered and there are major gaps in all the ways hideouts possible..., br, tanks, jets, etc the amount of smoke projectile! Within 2km, and bombers whereas the premier US/UK CAS planes are generally heavy fighters, attackers, and as. Vehicles in a flanking spot undetected you can flank with it it kind of sad if 're. When the T95 suddenly reaches the cap point 10 seconds before the match ends draw.., br, tanks, jets, etc bombers whereas the premier US/UK CAS planes are well equipped bombers! Theyre not suffering any more than anyone else if not correctly angled 're literally 10m.., uptiers beyond 6.0 were very rare 228mm of pen instead of the cappers I kill that... 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